Triathlon: Speed, Torque and Power

We have tried to explain the best way to cycle and we have used Chris Froome as an example and a flywheel:

18 juil. 2013

FROOME AND TRIATHLON TECHNIQUE II

Gregory Bateson wrote an interesting book about: “What every school child should know.” He even spoke about education:

''Science, like art, religion, commerce, and even sleep, is based on presuppositions.’’...  ''I have encountered a very strange gap in their thinking-- (referring to American Students from college freshmen to psychiatric residents, among humanists as well as scientists) that springs from a lack of certain tools  of thoughts. Specifically is the lack of knowledge of the presuppositions not only of science but also everyday life.''  (Mind and Nature, 25).

I found a very interesting conversation between bikers that illustrates what Bateson mentions and IT is the subject we should deal with regarding Froome at the Tour de France.  ANY WHEEL HAS A FLYING WHEEL EFFECT:

http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/1011876-flywheel-weight-dyno-chart/

Flywheel Weight Dyno Chart?

Started by user:4 , Mar 17 2013 05:02 AM

11 replies to this topic

user:4

Posted 17 March 2013 - 05:02 AM

#1

I have been looking for a dyno chart of bikes with and without flywheel weights installed... Bout to buy one and Im just curious what the power curve looks like on paper

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices onmotorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed

·                               Bolon Yokte K uh

Posted 17 March 2013 - 06:50 AM

#2

A flywheel weight has no effect on horsepower, the dyno charts would be identical.

·                               William1

Posted 17 March 2013 - 07:08 AM

#3

Yup. A flywheel only smooths out power delivery.

·                               Krannie

Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:44 AM

#4

...but it DOES change HP rise time (the time it takes to get to peak HP).

You might be confusing HP with Acceleration.

·                               slomojo

Posted 17 March 2013 - 04:28 PM

#5

Krannie, on 17 March 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

...but it DOES change HP rise time (the time it takes to get to peak HP).

You might be confusing HP with Acceleration.

Most people equate a fast reving engine with a more powerful engine.

A FWW will not change how much power is made at a specific RPM,( the 2 axis on a dyno graph)it only slows slightly how fast an engine reaches a specific RPM from an idle,it also slows how fast it will idle back down after the throttle is closed.

Just because an engine revs faster does not mean the power is transfered to the ground faster, often because of limited traction,vehicle acceleration is slower.

I run lots of extra weight on my CR and it hooks up better in most conditions.

If you are interested in a flywheel weight try one, its as easy to take off as it is to install,and relatively cheep.

Edited by slomojo, 17 March 2013 - 04:30 PM.

·                               user:4

Posted 18 March 2013 - 04:38 AM

#6

I know I know I know, I have done extensive research on FWW, I dont expect to see a power gain, but rather the power curve over RPM. I would guess that without the FWW, the dyno chart would look a bit steeper in the way the power comes in over RPM. But with the FWW, would you be able to see the cure change as how the power is delivered?

something like this but real haha   
obviously this is not to scale... 

Edited by user:4, 18 March 2013 - 04:39 AM.

·                               user:4

Posted 18 March 2013 - 04:44 AM

#7

slomojo, on 17 March 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Most people equate a fast reving engine with a more powerful engine.

A FWW will not change how much power is made at a specific RPM,( the 2 axis on a dyno graph)it only slows slightly how fast an engine reaches a specific RPM from an idle,it also slows how fast it will idle back down after the throttle is closed.

Just because an engine revs faster does not mean the power is transfered to the ground faster, often because of limited traction,vehicle acceleration is slower.

I run lots of extra weight on my CR and it hooks up better in most conditions.

If you are interested in a flywheel weight try one, its as easy to take off as it is to install,and relatively cheep.

oh im defiantly getting one. the idea makes perfect sense to me and im sure it will compliment my riding style. After a year or so of hearing from people about why I dont need one, I did the research and realized how much benefit they actually have. certainly characteristics I want my bike to have. cant wait to ride! I realized alot of people also dont know what it really does so the just act like its to "slow you down" haha, yeah, thats it 

·                               CBus660R

Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:07 AM

#8

user:4, on 18 March 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

I know I know I know, I have done extensive research on FWW, I dont expect to see a power gain, but rather the power curve over RPM. I would guess that without the FWW, the dyno chart would look a bit steeper in the way the power comes in over RPM. But with the FWW, would you be able to see the cure change as how the power is delivered?

something like this but real haha   


obviously this is not to scale...

A flywheel weight will not change the power curve like that.  It doesn't move/change the horsepower and torque output relative to RPM.  If you graphed it relative to time, then the FWW will soften the curve.  That's why people run them, to lessen the hit and give the tire a better chance to maintain traction.

·                               user:4

Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:34 AM

#9

CBus660R, on 18 March 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

A flywheel weight will not change the power curve like that.  It doesn't move/change the horsepower and torque output relative to RPM.  If you graphed it relative to time, then the FWW will soften the curve.  That's why people run them, to lessen the hit and give the tire a better chance to maintain traction.

your'e right. like Krannie said, I was confusing HP with acceleration. It wouldn't show any difference on a dyno, but riding the bike would be a noticeable difference because of the amount of time for the acceleration of your rear wheel.

Edited by user:4, 18 March 2013 - 05:34 AM.

·                               Bolon Yokte K uh

Posted 18 March 2013 - 06:11 AM

#10

Wait, that's not a real dyno printout?

·                               Krannie

Posted 18 March 2013 - 06:18 AM

#11

Bolon Yokte K uh, on 18 March 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

Wait, that's not a real dyno printout?

It's the new Fischer-Price Dyno, from K-Tel.

·                               kan3

Posted 18 March 2013 - 06:32 AM

#12

Course it's real

The difference between torque and power is that power moves the object; torque is the force apply and it is equal in number to power when the rpm is 5252:

An engine produces POWER by providing a ROTATING SHAFT which can exert a given amount of TORQUE on a load at a given RPM.

Humans pedal at 90 rpm average now a days (by looking at the Grand Tours), so we are too far from equalizing power and torque.  We have different curves related to torque-power-rpm.  Fortunately, there is an interesting paper written that studies the curve torque-rpm-power in bicycles.  What it shows is that at low rpm too much force is exerted to move the wheels compared to high cadence low torque at the same speed.  The velocity of the bicycle is the same; high torque vs low torque by changing cadence.  Also, the curve torque-rpm-power is very different by changing just 20 rpm.

http://www.fredericgrappe.com/wp-content/uploads/2005/09/Effect%20on%20the%20crank%20torque%20profile%20when%20changing%20pedaling%20cadence%20in%20level%20ground%20and%20uphill%20road%20cycling.pdf

Table 1

Mean pedaling cadence, cycling velocity, power output and crank inertial load of the cyclists during experimental condition. Uphill (U) vs. Flat (L)

Cycling condition                       Pedaling cadence (rpm) Power output (w) Velocity               Crank Inertia (kg/m2)         

U60                              61.1+-1.9                     325+-43                      15.0+-0.8                  42+-3.7

U80                              80.8+-1.6                     325+-39                      14.8+-0.7                  23+-1.6

L80                              82.2+-1.6                      322+-40                     38.3+-1.4                 158+-19

L100                            99.0+-1.3                      325+-35                     38.7+-1.5                 107+-15

What we see is that the torque does not convert "fully" to power at low cadence and it is seen in the crank inertia load; we waste energy using that much torque to move something at speed that could be accomplished with less torque.  The flywheel plays a role in the equation.

TRIATHLON: BELIEVE TO WIN

We wrote previous posts regarding no improvement of most of the athletes after adolescence:

Are our triathletes improving after they turned 18?  I think so, but not to the degree that people want to believe: and it is more difficult to improve for females.  Alistair Brownlee and Mario Mola have improved after they turned 18 based on increasing mileage running and biking when training.  Gwen Jorgensen is the exception as female triathlete; she improved her biking and automatically improved her running ability after improving her biking, very fast.  Alistair and Gwen were similar in that regard.  Ashleigh Gentle is a good example of what happens to triathletes practicing triathlon as a sport.  Since the age of 16 her swimming ability is quite similar.  Her running ability improved a little as well as her biking; the bicycle course is different now than 10 years back in Hamburg. 

21 juil. 2017

Triathlon Hamburg

We also spoke about “White privilege,” summoned in the paragraph below.

Privilege is usually transparent to those who have it! (When Marie Antoinette responded to the plight of the poor -- who had no bread -- with "Let them eat cake!" she may simply have been unaware that there actually were households in which there could not be found both bread and cake.) And that often means that fortunate folks assume everyone else is equally blessed.  So it becomes easy to judge those who fail as having been somehow at fault ... lazy, intemperate, etc.

http://www.poorhousestory.com/PovertyAmerDream.htm

A link between these two statements is needed to have a better view of what is going on.  Let’s take Mario Mola’s stats from the Spanish Federation at the age of 18. 

http://www.fecantri.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/baremo-general-definitivo-toma-tiempos-2008.pdf

40 JNM1 Uxío ABUÍN ARES Galicia

NAT100 00:59,0 11

CC400 00:56,0 11

NAT1000 11:57,0 11

CC1000 02:51,0 7

37 JNM2 Mario Mola Diaz Islas Baleares

CC1000 02:34,0 10

CC400 00:56,0 10

NAT100 01:00,0 10

NAT1000 12:26,0 7

36 CDF1 Marta Valera Rey Galicia

NAT100 01:08,0 12

CC400 01:12,0 10

CC1000 03:29,0 8

NAT1000 13:40,0 6

36 JNM1 Fernando Alarza Vicente Castilla La Mancha

CC400 00:54,0 11

NAT100 01:01,0 10

NAT1000 12:22,0 8

CC1000 02:54,0 7

Looking at the numbers, his numbers are equalized by some of our athletes but the performance of our athletes is not there.  Fernando Alarza is next to Mola in the testing done by the Spanish Federation and his performance appears to be right where it is.  Our athletes do not believe in their efforts and guidance because “cake” was not in the house just as Marie Antoinette believed it was “cake” in the house.  We have to double or triple our efforts to help our young people overcome poverty in their head because as it is said above; “both bread and cake” were not in the table and “garbage” was given and eaten happily.

Triathlon and Montréal World Series

The ITU is starting to understand the best way to improve a triathlon competition, making it more sophisticated, more equal in the three disciplines, and more attractive for viewers, but it got a little short.  The bike segment needs to be more suitable for bikers, in Montréal there were recovery time for the riders.  Segments were not hard and long enough between each other to allow riders to have a brake away.  Hopefully, the desired courses are on the way; something similar to Leeds. 

So far, outside Alistair Brownlee, there are no triathletes able to ride hard enough to have a breakaway in a course like the one in Montréal.  Javier Gómez did what he knows, he kept the bicycle pace rich because it was the way to keep competitors at bay.  Mario Mola practiced for the first time pulling the peloton, he could not run after.  He mentioned what he wanted to do in an interview; now he knows.  The French with the old tradition riding the bike were able to run what they are used to; born in 1995, 1993, 1990 respectively, to be in top nine.

It is incredible what one is capable of doing by riding the bicycle well.  We have the watts of Rigoberto Uran during the Tour de France and the difference in watts from his “domestiques” going up-hill:

This first KOM required high power outputs from all the riders. Looking at the discrepancy between Brown and Van Baarle vs. Urán on the climb, it is visible how effective the duo protected their Colombian captain.

With 395w, 6.08w/kg and 441w, 5.65w/kg they had to work hard while Urán in their shadow could stay at tempo intensity at 307w, 4.95w/kg. Teamwork in cycling at its best! Urán’s 10 minute peak power was 5.00w/kg—a low number compared to the previous stages.

COL LEBRAUT (5.1KM AT 5.5%) – KM26

Time / Speed           Power                      Power-to-Weight

Rigoberto Urán      11:00 / 28.3kph  307w        4.95w/kg

Nathan Brown       11:01 / 27.9kph  395w        6.08w/kg

Dylan Van Baarle  11:33 / 26.4kph   441w        5.65w/kg

The rest of the stage caused no difficulty for the whole team. No one was willing to take up the chase of the breakaway and consequently, the pace was very moderate.

For Urán, that meant 187w, 3.02w/kg for 4:42 hours. In the end, the field arrived in Salon-de-Provence, 12:27 minutes behind stage winner Edvald Boasson Hagen (Dimension Data).

The GC riders jumped on the opportunity of taking it easy for once and with the help of his teammates, the Colombian contender would save a lot of energy going into the critical time trial.

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/stage-19-20-power-analysis-rigoberto-urans-road-glory/?utm_source=tpr&utm_medium=email&utm_content=nonuser&utm_campaign=20170725_weekly_news

As Mario Mola said in the same interview: “I cannot hide any more in the peloton.”  If he does not improve his cycling power there is no other way to win.  Murray played it safe this time, he did not pull the peloton.  Hopefully the ITU continues to improve bike courses and not back up as in the case of Huatulco where they change it to make it flatter and easier for our competitors, so they could not be lapped.

SOS

DNS IS NOT FOUND